Season 2 Investigations Investigations transcript
Listen to this episode at VMIpod.com/investigations2
Content note: Veronica Mars contains heavy themes, and this season contains murder, violence and sexual assault.
A LONG TIME AGO ON VERONICA MARS SEASON 2:
Bus crash!
Child abuse!
People being accused of murders they didn’t do!
People being exonerated from murders they did do!
Rape retcons!
Jackie retcons!
Secret babies!
Sexpeopling!
Break-ups!
Not enough sightings of Backup!
JOY: Hoping Kendall’s briefcase contains Leo in a tearaway uniform, I’m Jenny Owen Youngs.
HZ: Hoping Kendall’s briefcase doesn’t contain another retcon, I’m Helen Zaltzman.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Hoping Kendall’s briefcase contains justice for Jackie, I’m LaToya Ferguson.
You’re listening to Veronica Mars Investigations Investigations Season 2.
JOY: With special guest LaToya Ferguson!
HZ: Thank you for joining us, Special Agent Ferguson.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Thank you for having me, you too. Can't wait to talk some V-Mars.
HZ: Do you have strong feelings about season two of Veronica Mars? I mean, that's a rhetorical question, essentially, for anybody.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah, I for the most part like season two. I think it's a mess, but I also think that there's a lot of enjoyable in it. I think the messy stuff... It's a whole thing, which we'll get into.
HZ: Well, we've got a lot of loose ends to tie up, and Lewis asks, "Were there any clues about Jackie being a mum before the last episode? I was very confused by that revelation."
JOY: We definitely got, ooh, two or three episodes ago, a very brief, in passing, line from Jackie to Terrence Cook. Something about the birds and the bees talk not going well for her or something? Were there any other indications?
HZ: She's good at working in the cafe?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah. That's not so much like, "She's a mom," but it kind of is taking away the facade of her just being a rich girl who's never worked a day in her life, that she is a great waitress immediately because, knowing Veronica Mars the show, there would be a whole thing about how she would suck at it if she was actually the rich girl she claims she is. But, yeah, the fact that she takes to it easily, that's the big tip-off that something is not quite right.
JOY: If Jackie's whole life has been living in New York, and maybe helping out around the restaurant where her mom works, if we're meant to believe that now, all of a sudden, that that's been her whole existence up to this point, how did she swoop in...? She really carried herself like a very rich person at the top of the season when she was introduced, right? Refusing to drive a Bronco, and using the Porsche while her dad is out of town. Just kind of like really playing into the stereotype. I don't know if it was like a defence mechanism, or just they decided in the middle of the season that they were going to just totally do something different.
LATOYA FERGUSON: I'm sure they decided mid-season they were going to do something different, but also it could just be a combination of, you know, she's seen rich people because rich people wouldn't pay attention to her in New York, but she's seen them, obviously.
JOY: Right, right, right.
LATOYA FERGUSON: And also, being Terrence Cook's daughter, she already was going to have an instant in with the 09ers, just with that, so she could just play the role basically.
JOY: Totally.
HZ: And she's very beautiful, so I'm sure that would be helpful as well.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah.
HZ: I was confused a bit about the fact that Terrence talks to Jackie as if she is going to Paris to study at the Sorbonne, even though we know that was never the plan. So did Jackie lie to him, or did they use "Paris" as like a codename for her son? Or maybe his name is Paris? We don't know. Presumably he knew about the baby because that's why she was sent to live with him, so is he also not concerned about his grandchild?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Well, he wasn't concerned about his child until now, so...
JOY: True.
HZ: I guess he's got a lot on this season as well.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah.
HZ: Shannon wants to know, "Was Terrence not paying child support to Jackie's mum? They give us this 180 at the end where Jackie is a broke single mom working at a diner with her broke single mom, but her dad is a millionaire and hasn't been providing anything until these last eight or nine months she was staying with him?"
LATOYA FERGUSON: That also very much tracks to me, that he's like a bum. Like, he's a deadbeat dad, honestly, and this was his easy way to make good for not being there for his child, not even monetarily. That makes a lot of sense to me. He luckily got away with the tabloids not knowing that he had this child out of wedlock or whatever, and they just didn't do anything with it, so he's just like, "I'm a great dad, look, I have my daughter here with me now." So, yeah, getting out of paying child support? That tracks to me. They should have sued him for child support, but, you know, his lawyers would have made that very expensive for Jackie's family, I would assume, just based on the world.
HZ: Yep, yeah, it is difficult to sue people unless you can afford to lose tens of thousands of dollars.
LATOYA FERGUSON: What did you guys think of Terrence? Because when I was doing my rewatch, I was like, he's basically an OJ Simpson amalgamation, but he doesn't have the personality to make it so he seems so beloved. And he was barely a red herring, like they make him a red herring but it's very unbelievable, except for everyone in Neptune, apparently, because he's a black man, so... And that's also why the Bronco thing is mentioned, because of OJ.
JOY: Oh, yeah.
HZ: Yeah. That's not subtle. It's also like, you're not invested enough in him for it to be compelling enough that he is falsely suspected of the bus crash for many episodes, because it doesn't make any sense that he would be.
JOY: I feel like he doesn't become compelling until he's been in the hospital and he and Jackie have just started to forge some kind of actual relationship.
HZ: They're reading magazines.
JOY: Reading magazines.
HZ: The whole show is about daddy relationships, isn't it? But this one - I think they didn't know what to do with either Cook, really, did they?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Because... Here's what I assume is the reason for Jackie's existence. UPN, much like The WB at first, was kind of like the black network. But they often tried to branch out, as it is, by getting white shows and trying to make them successful; like with Moesha, there's a whole season where they transfer her to like a boarding school, basically, with a lot of white characters. They wanted to get more, better advertisers, and then when that failed to get their new advertisers they just went back to the old school and they pretended that didn't exist. So with Veronica Mars, a critical success, it's clearly a white lead character, you know, but I'm sure that the UPN network wanted them to get more black people on the show. They had Sydney Poitier in for a season, that didn't work out...
HZ: They didn't have enough budget.
LATOYA FERGUSON: It's on UPN, that's why. So season two, they try with Jackie, but it's clear I think in a lot of ways it was just including Jackie because she was kind of mandated as a character to have, which is why she's written out to end this season, basically.
HZ: And also Alicia and Wallace's dad. Alicia, you don't really see her from about episode five, and the dad is just like, oh, here's Wallace's dad, oh, and then they're going to go off somewhere else and we don't see him.
LATOYA FERGUSON: And I never think about Wallace as the most dynamic character, but those episodes that he was missing, the show really - it missed a lot. Not having Wallace there, not having Wallace and Veronica's friendship., that really hurt the show.
HZ: He is the MVP. And I didn't really realise that before starting making the podcast about Veronica Mars. I thought, "Well, what would I have to say about Wallace?" Because he doesn't give you these spectacular moments that you remember. But he's also just like the heart of it, isn't he?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah.
HZ: But the budget doesn't have room for a heart.
JOY: It is really wild that we see like nothing of Wallace and his dad. He leaves town secretly with his biological father he just discovered, and we get nothing? He just comes back because he wants to get away from the Hummer hit and run situation.
HZ: Wallace leaves town secretly twice this season. If I was Alicia I would be pretty miffed about that.
JOY: Concerned. Well, he's probably got such a strong track record up to this point.
HZ: That's true.
JOY: But.
HZ: Do you think they introduced Jackie to give Wallace something to do this season?
LATOYA FERGUSON: I think it kills two birds with one stone. They're like, "Well, we have to have this character, so let's put her with Wallace."
HZ: I think her and Logan would have been a hot match. I mean, not probably a long-term one, but...
LATOYA FERGUSON: Oh, I agree. I think it's also in Blast From The Past, right, where they have a little bit of flirtation? Which obviously doesn't end well because she got wasted and everything and all that, but it would be very hot. What would not be hot would be the fandom's response to it, because they already hated Jackie from the moment she wanted Veronica to "do her job".
HZ: How dare. From one experienced service professional to another service professional.
LATOYA FERGUSON: As we know, Jackie is a monster because she wanted to order coffee and she didn't want Veronica to be talking to her boring boyfriend when she was on the job.
HZ: Everyone wants Veronica not to be talking to boring Duncan.
JOY: That's something we can all get behind.
LATOYA FERGUSON: And I've said it a million times before, there's nothing fundamentally different between Jackie and Veronica as people, but Veronica is our protagonist so everything Jackie does is villainous, basically, is the way the show portrays it. Until she is, of course, a knocked down a peg or two when her dad is accused of murder.
HZ: But then she also becomes a great detective in her own right.
JOY: Yes. Joining the team, busting out the magnifying glass, going deep undercover.
LATOYA FERGUSON: As we know, outsiders make great detectives. And unlike Veronica, Jackie is an actual outsider.
JOY: No, ah, nobody understands Veronica and nobody likes her, she's such an outcast, as you can see, of course, mmm.
HZ: It's just very hard to be a cute blonde.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Hard to be a cute blonde with a choker in California.
HZ: Any other unresolved Jackie business, apart from our hurt feelings?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Which episode is the one where Veronica goes to the psychic?
HZ: Oh!
LATOYA FERGUSON: Because that episode has like a lingering thing that always questions.
JOY: Blast From The Past?
LATOYA FERGUSON: So with that, obviously, Jackie gives her information that she got from Veronica. That way she could play a prank on her. But then the psychic goes on about Lilly, and it's all stuff Jackie clearly would not have known, didn't know, and she even tells Wallace like, "I didn't know." And it's clear she didn't know. So obviously, Veronica Mars is probably infamous in the town of Neptune. It seems like a very specific thing that it's like... Did this woman just have real psychic stuff? Did someone else get involved? And they never address any of that.
HZ: Also, did Jackie fake the whole stolen card plot that led Veronica to the psychic in the first place? And yet it's only us who see the scenes of her card being refused at the psychic's.
LATOYA FERGUSON: And the credit card fraud thing is, basically, it's not even fraud. It's just that Jackie actually maxed it out, and she decides apparently to go to Veronica to pretend it was fraud.
JOY: Were you saying something about this season being convoluted, LaToya?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Ha.
HZ: I think it's like, you know, if you just gave Veronica a little dog treat, she'd eat it in a second, but if you put it in a Kong it gives her something to play with for 40 minutes.
JOY: Wow. I can only imagine this is the direct result of me having become the kind of person who talks in detail about how I feed my dog and make it last. Helen, I'm sorry that you had to listen to me talk about giving Frank his dinner in a Kong.
HZ: It's alright, you're not the first Kong owner that I have encountered, Jenny.
JOY: Mmm. And we're all just such zealots about it.
HZ: We have questions about the bus crash, and Rebecca says, "Why was the limo right behind the bus on the PCH, but when the bus stopped at to the gas station we didn't see the limo there?" So presumably she thinks the limo would have got further ahead than the bus, so it wouldn't be behind it with them all standing on the cliff going, "They're all dead!"
JOY: Maybe while the bus was getting gas, the limo was making a stop at like a liquor store?
HZ: Or a fancy gas station for fancy people...
JOY: Yes.
HZ: ...where it takes an hour because they give you free drinks.
JOY: Limos only.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Helen, I love your impression of Gia screaming, "They're all dead!"
HZ: I've been practising. Now that I don't have Abel Koontz to do impressions of any more, I've got to branch out.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Abel Koontz...
JOY: Yeah, and now that you've watched it in every single episode's Previously On all season, you've had plenty of time to really get it drilled in.
HZ: It wasn't actually in the original show, I just edited it in for you.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Ha!
JOY: LaToya, do you have an Abel Koontz impression? Checking, just checking.
LATOYA FERGUSON: [Doing an impression of Abel Koontz] "I know who you are, Veronica Maaarrs."
JOY: Ha!
HZ: Ooh, chilling.
JOY: Drink!
HZ: Jenny, where's yours?
JOY: This is not an area in which I excel, Helen, of course.
HZ: You don't know until you try.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah, you gotta do it. I just did it, like I got right into my mic and I did it.
HZ: You had no warning, LaToya, and you were just ready. Ready for this job.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Drinking my seltzer, doing Abel Koontz impressions. You can do it, Jenny.
JOY: I... Can I? Well, he's all, "[Makes a sound like an evil sheep]." Listen, you get it. That's how he talks.
LATOYA FERGUSON: I will just say, as much like an extra bitch as Abel Koontz is, Christian Clemenson is quite the talented character actor and I always love him when he's in anything. He's so versatile. I've never seen him do the same role twice, basically.
JOY: Oh, that's cool.
HZ: Aw, that's sort of disappointing that I won't be able to see him playing to type in other shows where he's like, "Mmm, Verrronica Maaarsss," even if it's nothing to do with it. In his woolly hat. Clara has a legit question: she says, "In all of the interviews about the bus crash, Gia states that her dad told her not to take the bus. Now we know that Woody wasn't the one who blow up the bus - so why did he warn Gia away?"
LATOYA FERGUSON: "Don't be with the poors," basically.
JOY: Yeah.
HZ: But then, if she was allowed to be with the poors on the way there and at the stadium tour...
JOY: He probably saw Dick scheming to get a limo out of there, and Woody was like, "Oh, go hang out with the 09ers."
LATOYA FERGUSON: Gia's new.
JOY: Since the whole fucking field trip is designed to make her friends.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah, exactly.
HZ: Or did he not want her on the bus with several of his abuse victims?
LATOYA FERGUSON: That also works, too, once he realises who was on the bus.
JOY: Oh, god.
HZ: But why send her to a school where there are several of his abuse victims as students and staff?
LATOYA FERGUSON: I mean, it's a big school. Not assuming she wouldn't, you know, be in a club or in a class with them, necessarily.
JOY: Maybe sending your daughter to the public school is a great way to get people on your side for incorporation, Helen's favourite topic.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Ooh, we're talking incorporation, baby?
HZ: Noooooooo!
JOY: Helen fucking loves incorporation. She's like, "Incorporate the podcast, incorporate Neptune, incorporate my clothes closet, incorporate my hair..."
HZ: We've changed VMIPod to "Veronica Mars Incorporated".
JOY: Yes!
LATOYA FERGUSON: Incorporation! Incorporation! Incorporation!
HZ: It's such a thrilling plot twist. Steph asks, "Why did Cassidy blow up the bus on the way back from the stadium? Marcos and Peter were planning on confronting Woody publicly at the stadium, so surely it would have made much more sense to blow it up on the way there."
LATOYA FERGUSON: They didn't, though, right?
HZ: No, they didn't.
LATOYA FERGUSON: They decided not to do it there, but if they were to do it in the future, if they like gained the courage again, just pre-emptive, I guess?
HZ: Yeah. Well, Steph continues, "I know Cassidy was ultimately right in that it didn't end up happening, but if you've got an extremely complex super villain plot it's a pretty big risk to take, unless the confrontation ultimately didn't end up happening because he stopped it. But how? Does Woody ever confirm what exactly happened there?"
LATOYA FERGUSON: So he sets up the bomb, obviously. I'm imagining he realises he's able to convince them not to do it, like on the way there possibly? But then on the way back, he's like, "Just in case, kaboom."
HZ: Quite a bit of admin, putting in that rat.
LATOYA FERGUSON: It's convoluted.
HZ: I mean, did he just take a rat just in case he had to do the bus thing after? Wouldn't people have smelled it on him?
JOY: Hmm. I know whenever I take dead rats around to tape under public transportation seats, the smell tends to linger on me, so...
HZ: Even though it's only a few days since we recorded a lengthy recap of the finale, I can't stop thinking about it, so a question I have for you both is whether you think Kendall was part of the plot to kill Aaron or whether she was just having sex with him for something to do. And also, was Clarence Wiedman in the room the whole time they were sexpeopling? Behind the curtains or something? Because like Aaron switches the TV on and the gun is behind him almost instantly.
JOY: Yeah.
LATOYA FERGUSON: So, Kendall was just looking for her new mark, basically, that's what that was. And yes, Clarence Wiedman was there the entire time because he's a little perv.
JOY: Yeah. Clarence Wiedman mixing business with pleasure, as he is wont to do. Well, I don't want to project my own interests onto Clarence Wiedman. Who knows what he's into. But I'm sure there was something there he could enjoy.
HZ: Ugh.
JOY: Is this... How am I doing?
HZ: Regarding the plane exploding, do you think Cassidy had put a tracker on it? Because... I mean, I wondered in our finale recap why he didn't just blow it up on Woody's way out of town, but how would he even know where the plane was going? Because there were no flight plans, they had said, and then it left the place just outside Reno at the time when Keith got him arrested, so that wasn't planned either. I suppose Corny does come up to him in the hotel lobby going, "Did you hear, Veronica's dad has arrested the mayor, and he's on his plane back," but nonetheless, you know, the timing is perfect.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah, I don't know how black boxes work. Could he, like, triangulate or hack in to see where they are? He also had to time it with Mac getting the text, so...
HZ: Yeah. Very felicitous. I suppose he could have detonated it from the bedroom if things had gone well with Mac - but he could have probably just easily killed Woody at the beginning of the season. He could have put it on Woody's golf cart, huh?
JOY: Oh, yeah, but then Keith might have been on there. Aren't they on the golf cart together at some point?
HZ: Keith is not allowed on the cart.
LATOYA FERGUSON: He allows Keith to be, in his mind, collateral damage anyway, so he wouldn't care if Keith got blown up on a golf cart.
JOY: Ah, but I would care.
LATOYA FERGUSON: I mean, we would all care.
JOY: Protect Keith at all costs!
HZ: And then, when did Cassidy plant the bomb in the first place? And how far away can a cellphone detonate a bomb on a plane?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Oh my god.
HZ: I realise that neither of you are necessarily experts on how far away a cellphone can detonate a bomb. But maybe someone listening is?
JOY: I feel like we all know enough to know that this is not legit, right?
LATOYA FERGUSON: This season had a lot of going to go into airplane hangars, so that's part of it I guess. The amount of things I never thought I'd have to care about in a TV show that are in this season. Incorporation. Airplane hangars. At least like when The OC did all its real estate plots, it was interesting. But like... Jesus, incorporation.
HZ: I mean, it's a rogue choice. People know my feelings about this choice. You know that text that Veronica sends Mac which is like, "Cassidy's a murderer, get away"? I mean, he could have just deleted it rather than taking Mac's phone and all the bedding, and then just left a note saying, "I'm going out for snacks," and she would have just stayed in bed for ages, leaving him plenty of time to do some detonating, murdering, whatever he wanted, without suspicion. And also, Mac had been alone with Cassidy a lot, and Veronica sending her that text would probably make her panic rather than extricate herself from the room without arousing Cassidy's suspicion. So why would you do that?
LATOYA FERGUSON: So many of these questions... There's no doubt in my mind that someone, or multiple someones, in the writers' room questioned these things, and they just moved on.
HZ: There's no time!
JOY: No time.
HZ: Because incorporation. No one will be making a podcast about this shit in 14 years' time.
LATOYA FERGUSON: 2006, no one knows how phones work.
HZ: That's true.
LATOYA FERGUSON: No one creating TV, no one who is a showrunner, in 2006 knew how phones work. That's for sure.
HZ: They were born too early. We have multiple people who have written in to question the timeline, as established in season 1 episode 21 of the rape of Veronica, and whether Duncan or Beaver was there first.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah, I believe that Beaver was after Duncan.
HZ: I thought so, I thought Duncan had left because he was like, "You're my sister," and then Beaver...
LATOYA FERGUSON: It's like Duncan says in A Trip To The Dentist, "I saw you, I saw what I did, and I had to go," and Veronica's like, "Why?" "Because you're my sister!" And then he ran and left her, and she's like, "And you left me there!" And then there's crying. It's very sunny outside the Kane household, I remember it like it's yesterday. Leighton Meester was there. Leighton Meester, love you, love Carrie Bishop. And then Beaver showed up and, almost like a decent person, like he tells her in A Trip To The Dentist, "I'm a good person," and then, as we learned, a bad person.
HZ: That's exactly what a bad person would say to throw you off the scent.
JOY: Yes!
LATOYA FERGUSON: Just like a bad person.
JOY: I literally cannot wait for us to not be talking about the chronology in which Veronica was sexually assaulted.
HZ: For me, the timeline is not the problem; yhe double retcon is.
JOY: Yeah, and for me, the problem is that my head is in the toilet and I am throwing up.
HZ: If you were trying to keep your molestation a secret, would you write "Veronica Mars" in sharpie on one of your murder victim's palms?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Well, he was doing a red herring. He's like, "I'm going to create a red herring, and another red herring, and another red herring..."
HZ: "I'm a villain now!"
JOY: At this point, wouldn't anybody in Neptune know not to involve Veronica Mars where she hasn't already involved herself? Even trying to make her a red herring, or bring her under suspicion? She's going to start investigating, and then, you know, as history has taught you, as a resident of Neptune, you will be fucked eventually.
LATOYA FERGUSON: I mean, his incel bravado was telling him that he was smarter than Veronica, which, you know what? He kind of was until the lightbulb dinged in her head in Not Pictured, so that's why he kept doing these things.
HZ: He could have written "Dick Casablancas" on there, since his brother has bullied him so much in his life. That'd be a kind of revenge.
LATOYA FERGUSON: No one would buy that Dick did anything involving a dude showing up dead on the beach.
JOY: Dick can't orchestrate things. I don't think anybody would suspect Dick of being able to orchestrate things.
LATOYA FERGUSON: He's very dumb, you see.
JOY: A simple man with simple desires.
LATOYA FERGUSON: A simple man who loves to upchuck the boogie, and that's just that.
HZ: And also good for nothing else.
LATOYA FERGUSON: I guess he puts it down. Like, he has girls fighting over him, because I'm guessing he's a good sex idiot.
JOY: Ha! Now that's what his fucking stupid little text t-shirt should say. "Sex Idiot".
HZ: I think he'd be very proud of that. Now, one of the plots that they are taking into season 3 is the murder of Thumper, and Weevil's involvement therein.
JOY: No!
HZ: I was wondering how that worked, what would the logistics... Because Weevil and the Fitzpatricks don't seem to get along, but Weevil also chloroformed someone and then delivered him to the Fitzpatricks, for them to finish off Thumper. So how will all that go down? And how did Weevil know what happened to him after? Did they send Weevil a description of their plans?
LATOYA FERGUSON: I'm sure he knows what the Fitzpatricks do, especially knowing what they were working on within their legit job at the time.
HZ: But he said Thumper got "crushed", and has a little joke with himself. So how would he have known that particular mode of Thumper dispatch?
JOY: Hmm.
LATOYA FERGUSON: What were the other options for the Fitzpatricks? Like, what were they gonna do to get rid of him easily, without a trace?
HZ: Um... Guns? Running over? Punching, a lot?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Well, with guns there's a trace.
HZ: Industrial meat grinder...
LATOYA FERGUSON: Do they have access to a meat grinder? Is that one of their legit businesses?
HZ: Well, you know there's a lot of brothers. One of them is bound to be a butcher, because that's how this show rolls.
JOY: That's true. That's very true.
HZ: And a question that plagues me, night and day, is how did they get Lilly Kane's blood onto Aaron Echolls's Oscar? Now, I've already disputed the very existence of the Oscar because I think it would have gone in the Echolls family home fire. But also, Aaron has confirmed it's not the murder weapon. So somehow Kendall has managed to plant Duncan's hair on it, but how did they get Lilly's blood on it?
JOY: Such a good question.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Paid someone off, in forensics or whatever? Or whoever would have the blood.
JOY: Hey, we know that laboratory professionals in the area have already been bribed to falsify other test results.
HZ: It is true.
JOY: So, an easily corruptible laboratory force in the region.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah, we can never discount the corruption of Neptune on this show.
HZ: Jenna asks, "Did they ever resolve what that guy who stole Cliff's briefcase was after? We know he shared a cell with Aaron, but what was in the briefcase that Aaron wanted?"
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah, it was like the key to Aaron's personal belongings, to a storage locker, and that included the Oscar.
HZ: The melted Oscar.
JOY: And a vial of Lilly's blood.
HZ: I was wondering: whatever happened to Duncan's mystery epilepsy mental health condition?
LATOYA FERGUSON: It had to be written off with him. Poof.
HZ: Written off before he was written off? Because he was a very serene Duncan, even in a lot of trauma with Meg being in that coma.
JOY: I think he was cured by dating Veronica again. That just made any any issues he was having go away.
HZ: It's just so boring that it blanks out all extremes of emotion?
JOY: Yes.
HZ: I'm hoping off-screen he found some equilibrium with appropriate medical help. Or maybe it's just not living with his parents anymore.
JOY: That's probably going to improve anybody's mental health, getting out of the Kane household.
HZ: Eila asks, "What was the point of the Fitzpatricks? They were made to seem like the big deal of season two, then fizzled into nothing. Why?”
JOY: Why, indeed.
LATOYA FERGUSON: I disagree. I think the Fitzpatricks serve a very important thing, which is that, while it's all fun to have the PCHers, who are a teen bicycle gang who sells pot, there's actual dangerous drug dealers and criminals in this town that, you know what, maybe Veronica shouldn't fuck with.
JOY: Mmm.
LATOYA FERGUSON: I'm sure we'll learn more about that in the future.
JOY: Mm-hmm.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah, it's a reminder: these are kids, and maybe they should kind of remember that themselves sometimes.
JOY: Yeah. They don't have to do all the grown-up stuff.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah.
HZ: No, they can do the missing dog cases, and leave the terrifying drugs trade cases to someone else.
JOY: Yeah.
HZ: I barely remember this episode, but do you remember the confusing episode with the plot outing gay students, and also pizza muggings?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yes.
JOY: Oh god.
HZ: Where it seems like the pizza muggings are connected to the gay students, but they actually aren't.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Versatile Toppings?
JOY: Yeah, that's right.
HZ: Veronica found out about the blackmail of the gay students because of the pizza muggings. But if the pizza muggings had happened like a different week, would she have just not got onto that plot? Or would she, because Kylie hired her? But then why would Kylie have hired her to drop money off for Kylie, the blackmailer, herself?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Because, well, it's obvious: it's because we need to see Kristin Cavallari act, to learn why Kristin Cavallari should not act. Paris Hilton was better.
JOY: Paris Hilton, the unsung guest star of this television programme. Give Paris her Emmy.
LATOYA FERGUSON: That Joel Silver mandate. Paris Hilton, because of House of Wax, Joel Silver is like, "I'm going to make her even more of a star."
JOY: Yes.
HZ: Who was your favourite stunt casting star of this season? I'm going to go for Furonda from ANTM, who played Woody's assistant Bev. She was good.
LATOYA FERGUSON: I don't know if that should count as stunt casting, because technically those were just the rewards for winning a competition on America's Next Top Model.
HZ: I wonder if they did test them on a few Veronica Mars lines in order to win that challenge.
LATOYA FERGUSON: But also, I have to go with number one, which is Charisma Carpenter.
HZ: Yes. God, I forgot she hasn't been in this since the beginning.
LATOYA FERGUSON: See? Aha.
JOY: She's so fucking great on this show.
HZ: Yeah.
JOY: She's so great on this show.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah.
JOY: Come on.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Kendall fucking rocks.
JOY: Unbelievable.
HZ: In Versatile Toppings, why is Ryan carrying a list of gay students in his wallet? All the better to be stolen.
LATOYA FERGUSON: No one knows how the internet works, either.
HZ: You have to print it out and put it in your wallet.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Middle-aged men don't know this, and they're the ones running TV shows.
HZ: Ah, true. Well, now I'm 40, I'm wondering about all the things I don't know that if I ever got to be a showrunner would be hugely embarrassing for anyone younger than me to watch.
JOY: Sure, sure. I have a lot of printed-out lists in my wallet right now, Helen. Guess how many you're on? A bunch.
HZ: Oh, Jesus.
LATOYA FERGUSON: You just made the list.
JOY: List of my favourite people, list of my favourite podcast co-hosts, list of my favourite dachshund enthusiasts...
HZ: Aw, thank you.
LATOYA FERGUSON: It's a good list.
HZ: Means a lot. In episode nine of season two, the one where Logan's sister Trina discovers her birth mother is Mary, who works at the school and uses sign language to communicate, why did she spell out the word ‘friend’ letter-by-letter, where Veronica misses the R, rather than using the ASL signs for ‘friend’?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Oh, lunchlady Doris. That's because the episode would only be five minutes if they did it. I even remember, watching that episode as a teenager, being like, "Oh, it's clear she meant 'friend'. She clearly meant 'friend'." And then you go on for another 30 minutes before she's like, "Oh, you meant 'friend'?"
JOY: Yeah. From the greatest investigative teen mind in the Southern California area. She couldn't grasp that one thing. All wrapped up in her mommy issues.
HZ: You know, people say "fiends" in conversation so much.
JOY: Yeah, people are always calling people's moms "fiends".
HZ: Do you think that Celeste Kane was in on the plot to get Duncan and the baby out of the country?
LATOYA FERGUSON: No.
HZ: Confident.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah.
JOY: Tell us more.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Her assistant was like, "Yeah, I would definitely help get this baby away from Celeste Kane." Celeste was not part of anything. She probably didn't even want Duncan to acknowledge the baby's existence.
HZ: Mmm, yeah, because then I guess the baby would have a financial claim on the fortune. I do wonder what Duncan's financial options are now that he - he wasn't a criminal for taking the baby out the country, but he was a criminal for using a false passport, and now for ordering a hit, so I would guess that would make things a little harder to claim on his family fortune. But then, what employment is a Duncan gonna get? Does he have a work permit in Australia?
JOY: And do you put that "ordering a hit" on your résumé? Very organised. Great at delegating.
LATOYA FERGUSON: I'm just remembering the first time Duncan decided to run away and leave the country and he grew facial hair, and how upsetting that was.
JOY: That's not what I would call it.
HZ: Ah, bearded Duncan.
LATOYA FERGUSON: That struggle beard.
HZ: I'd forgotten about that. Duncan in Cuba-played-by-San-Diego.
LATOYA FERGUSON: What do you guys think narratively flipped the switch for Meg's parents to become religious zealots, and wanted to be with someone like Lucky? I understand if they're just your average Christian family. But like, Lizzie's transformation from wild child to the reserved girl we see in season two, there was clearly a change made.
HZ: Grief?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Was it the fact that Meg got knocked up by Duncan, or...?
HZ: They really set up a lot of sinister Manning stuff with the child locked up, writing out lines. But then the Mannings are also anti-Woody? Because the way that I'd remembered it, which is completely incorrect, was that there was like this whole child abuse ring that they were part of. But they're not. I had probably just glued those things together in my mind in the decades since I last saw this.
LATOYA FERGUSON: It's because, in that episode, it revealed really all of these parents are kind of abusing their children and it should be addressed. But Veronica does not address that at all.
HZ: Yeah. And then, why does he bail out Lucky? Just because he liked him?
LATOYA FERGUSON: I understand, sure, Lucky goes to your church or whatever; but he's clearly not well, and you're trying to marry your teenage daughter off to him or something?
HZ: I was wondering whether they had a plan for the Mannings that they did not have time to do. It seems like there were a lot of things that may have been teed up in this season that they then didn't have time to actually put on screen.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Have you guys read the Veronica Mars books?
HZ: Not yet. But they're canon.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah, those actually are canon.
HZ: So we're gonna have to. They're canon after the film, aren't they?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yeah, they're canon after the film, yeah, and the second one basically addresses how Veronica failed Meg's little sister. That's like the main plot, basically. Yeah.
HZ: Did they ever address the failure to protect Woody's younger child?
LATOYA FERGUSON: I don't think so, actually. See? It's what I'm saying. All these families were not good, and we need to address that. They also address how hot Leo is.
JOY: Nice.
HZ: Important.
JOY: Hell yeah.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Leo is her partner in the case in the second book, so they're working together, baby.
HZ: See, something to look forward to Jenny.
JOY: Oh, two professionals? In the workplace? Where things get sexy, more often than not, you know? Investigating, late into the night, by the light of a single exposed bulb in the very dim office?
HZ: Wow, a novel's coming out of Jenny's imagination right now.
JOY: Listen...
HZ: I'll proofread it for you for free.
JOY: Thank you.
HZ: Sarah from El Cerrito says, "I don't understand what Lucky has to do with anything. Seems like he was a Woody victim too. Obviously at least a little obsessed with Gia, and probably in need of the help of a mental health professional, but other than that is he just a man-sized red herring?"
LATOYA FERGUSON: Yes, he's a red herring also.
JOY: Yeah. How many herrings, man?
HZ: Veronica finds that critical voice recording because she's going to find Lucky's emails on Woody's computer - but presumably that voice recording came from Cassidy, because he was recording it and he's cut himself out of it, so how would she have found that in Lucky's emails? Or did Cassidy talk him into sending it with the "Kill incorporation or else" subject line?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Email spoofing? I feel like that's something Cassidy could do, and even I can do that, so it's not even like something that is such a big thing that makes no sense at all.
HZ: I suppose, because also all of their email addresses are like lucky3HEjanitor or something @planetzowie.net.com.ceo. Or Mac could have just taught him how to do it. One last question from Anna, who says, "Did Logan plant the coke that Hannah finds in Dr Tom Griffith's bathroom?" Because he is in the bathroom, and he does have reason to fuck over Dr Tom.
LATOYA FERGUSON: And Hannah finds it, or...?
HZ: Hannah finds it because Logan's like, "Your dad is not who he says he is."
LATOYA FERGUSON: Oh yeah, because there's no way an addict like him would leave it around where his daughter can find it.
HZ: It is impossible to tie up the loose ends of season two, because it's not so much loose ends as - do you remember, there was a toy that was like a kind of pompom made out of rubber strands that you'd play catch with?
JOY: Oh yeah, a Koosh.
LATOYA FERGUSON: That's a Koosh ball, baby.
HZ: I must have had a non-branded one. It's a Koosh ball of loose ends, verily, but, Detective LaToya, thank you so much for soothing my mind and making some of these mysteries things I can live with rather than be chafed by every waking and sleeping hour forevermore.
LATOYA FERGUSON: It's been interesting, I will say.
HZ: That is...
JOY: ...the best we can hope for. Well, I guess that's season two of Veronica Mars investigated.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Case closed.
JOY: That was Veronica Mars Investigations Investigations season two.
HZ: We'll be back in a month to face season three.
JOY: So scared. Find the show on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook @VMIpod.
HZ: The website, where the show lives with a thousand unanswered questions I still have about season two, is VMIpod.com.
LATOYA FERGUSON: I'm LaToya Ferguson, and you can find me on Twitter at @lafergs. You can also hear me talk more, if you're into that sort of thing, on Angel On Top podcast. We're talking Angel Season Three over at @angelontopcast on Twitter and Instagram, and also talking about horny vampires from The Vampire Diaries on The AMPire Diaries podcast, which is @AMPDiariesPod on Twitter.
JOY: Wow. So many horny vampires, so little time. I'm Jenny Owen Youngs, and you can listen to me yammer on at length about another petite blonde protagonist on the sibling pod to Angel On Top, Buffering The Vampire Slayer. You can also hear the music that I make at jennyowenyoungs.com.
HZ: I'm Helen Zaltzman, and I make two other podcasts, both of which contain facts in an entertainment form, and they are Answer Me This and The Allusionist, available at the pod places.
JOY: This episode was edited and mixed by Helen Zaltzman, god bless her weary soul. The transcript is by Ian Steadman.
HZ: The music is by Martin Austwick and Jenny Owen Youngs.
JOY: The sheriff of this town is Hrishikesh Hirway.
HZ: The show is distributed by PRX.
JOY: Until next time, who's your daddy?
HZ: Who's your daddy?
LATOYA FERGUSON: Who's your daddy?
JOY: So many daddies to choose from in the sprawling, vast wasteland of season two.
HZ: We found a cookie tin of my daddy's urine the other day. So...
JOY: Hey, maybe Logan actually hid that for you to find.
HZ: Oh, that was considerate.
LATOYA FERGUSON: Lovely.
