Veronica Mars Investigations Investigations season 1 transcript

Listen to this episode at vmipod.com/investigations1

A LONG TIME AGO ON VERONICA MARS: 

Mysteries! 
Plotholes!
Confusion!
Mars stuff, just go with it, ok?

JOY: Hoping it would be Leo at the door, I’m Jenny Owen Youngs. 
HZ: Hoping it would be Backup at the door, I’m Helen Zaltzman. 
DUANA TAHA: Hoping it would be not Duncan at the door, I’m special guest Duana Taha.

You’re listening to Veronica Mars Investigations Investigations season 1.

HZ: So we are going to investigate some of the loose ends and open plot holes of Veronica Mars season 1. And to aid us in our detective quest is special guest Duana Taha. 

DUANA TAHA: Hello! 

HZ: Duana. You're a TV writer. You've worked in the televisions. 

DUANA TAHA: It's true. Making entertainment units one at a time. 

HZ: Units? You measure it in units. Not in gills, not in acres. 

DUANA TAHA: That's the official measure, I believe. 

HZ: And you're also a Veronica Mars enthusiast. 

DUANA TAHA: Yeah. I only realized how much when I started listening to this podcast. 

HZ: Yes! 

JOY: Hell yeah.

DUANA TAHA: When I started cheering along in my car, I thought maybe my Veronica Mars enthusiasm is getting a little over the top. 

HZ: Well, I feel like this qualifies you very well to tackle some of these queries the listeners have raised during the course of Season 1. 

DUANA TAHA: I am excited. 

HZ: I'm excited. This is an interesting question from Vaughan, who asks, "Did Lynn Echolls know about Aaron Echolls and Lilly before her death? Lynn tells Aaron that she always knew about his affairs in Neptune and only needed to have Aaron followed while he was on location. I have watched through the series at least seven times and the thought of this only occurred to me recently. Could she have known about the affair and at minimum suspected Aaron's involvement with Lilly's death?" Duana, what do you reckon? 

DUANA TAHA: My gut is that as tolerant as Lynn was of whatever was not going on, I think this would have been a bridge too far. Her son's girlfriend. Too much opportunity for crossover. I'm going to say no. 

HZ: Yeah. I think she would've been too upset on Logan's behalf to do nothing because Lynn is the only family member really that is even vaguely protective of Logan in any way. 

DUANA TAHA: You know what? You're right. She would have known how hurt he would be. So, yes, I agree. And certainly not about any implications for Aaron later. 

HZ: Although she feared for her future if she and Aaron split up, with this, she would have quite a lot of leverage compared to his other affairs, because he would be involved with a minor. So she would have a lot more legal recourse and also tabloid recourse than when he's just fucking some catering assistants. 

JOY: Yeah. So if she had known, their fighting and conversation around the possibility of divorce probably would have been very different. Like right after the stabbing. Right? 

HZ: I would've thought it would add something quite significant to that conversation. 

DUANA TAHA: You would speculate that, yeah, so if she was the kind of person who would reference the affairs, that she would also reference "Your tawdry and illegal situation with our son's girlfriend" - would kind of be the the the key bomb to throw there. 

JOY: Yeah, yeah. Especially because, you know, he's threatening like, "Oh, if you divorce me, like you're not gonna get anything, you're gonna be without money and without a home." She definitely would have had plenty of ammunition to toss back in that exchange. 

DUANA TAHA: I guess it also brings up the question of how long the Lilly and Aaron affair was going on. Was it a few isolated ill-advised incidents? 

HZ: I think he and Lilly would've been involved long enough for her to seem pretty comfortable when she's in the sex hut and is beckoning him forward, which suggests they've met several times, but it's still new enough that they're both excited about it in some way. 

DUANA TAHA: Also it makes me wonder about the runtime of those tapes. 

HZ: Yes. 

DUANA TAHA: Because if it was many, many times, I assume there would be many tapes?

HZ: Maybe it wasn't always in the same location. Maybe it wasn't always in locations that were rigged with cameras. Because also she was involved with Weevil at the time. So just how much time did she have? It's like Laura Palmer, how did she have so much time for all of the multiple things that are going on? 

JOY: Well, Veronica has many suitors and she makes it work. 

HZ: This is true. 

JOY: Also, I've recently been rewatching Xena: Warrior Princess, and she seems to have had a romantic entanglement with every single strong, tall, broad-shouldered man that she encounters across Greece. Maybe the difference between people who get a show and people who don't are their ability to juggle infinite romantic affairs. 

HZ: So they're just very productive in their sexual lives. 

JOY: Can it be ‘productive’? 

HZ: Well, you know how people are like productivity to optimise your work time, but they're optimizing their sex time. 

JOY: Yes, OK, yes. 

HZ: Also, we know that time doesn't operate the same way in Neptune, which is why you can get to other places so fast. Except for Barstow, which you have to fly to. 

HZ: This is a good query from Weevildoer.

JOY: Yeah, that's what somebody coined, that term for allegiance with other people who were into Weevil. 

HZ: "How did Weevil find the secret message pen hidden in the air vent, but not the sex tapes of Aaron and Lilly, also hidden in the air vent?"

JOY: Well, isn't there more than one air vent in Lilly's room? Wasn't there one to the right of the door and one to the left of the door? 

HZ: Whoa. Detective Young's been checking her blueprints for the Kane house. 

JOY: Yeah, you know. Also, if Weevil saw those tapes, would he take them? 

HZ: Yeah. 

JOY: Or would he just be like, here's the thing I've been looking for, for whatever reason, this whatever secret reason, we don't know exactly?

HZ: Was the spy pen even in the air vent? Or was it just a pen that is a disguised pen? Why would you need to hide it? And also is an air vent a good place to hide anything? 

JOY: Especially because I think a lot of people knew that that's where Lilly was hiding things. Didn't Duncan take us there at one point and say that she was hiding things? I may be misremembering, but it didn't seem like it was a terribly secret hiding place. 

HZ: I feel like Duncan would know. Veronica knew. 

JOY: Logan knows. 

HZ: I would hide things probably in plain sight, more than that. 

JOY: Oh, maybe just put it in your pen holder, but with a little fedora and a trench coat and a magnifying glass. 

HZ: Yeah, fake moustache. Very nice. 

JOY: Yeah yeah yeah. 

HZ: We should tell those in the merch. Pens in disguise. 

DUANA TAHA: I did kind of wonder if a spy pen was just very clever re-branding of pen. 

HZ: I also thought there is ample room in many pens' chambers for some notes. 

JOY: It seems that way. 

DUANA TAHA: Yeah. 

HZ: But yeah, I think Weevil would take them just in case it was -

JOY: Hot? 

HZ: - useful. I don't know whether would watch them, but I think he would appreciate an object of value that he could use if he was at disadvantage in an altercation with someone richer than him. 

DUANA TAHA: Having tapes is always better than not having tapes. 

HZ: How many tapes have you got on people, in your evidence? 

JOY: Actually, I would suggest based on what we've learned about the people in Neptune, probably it's better to not have tapes than to have the tapes that are available in Neptune, which largely seem to be homemade child porn. By legal standards. 

HZ: Maybe Weevil didn't want to land on the sex offender register. 

JOY: It's possible. He's the only one who's not on there at this point, I think. 

JOY: Someone called Bridget insists that we address: "What did Weevil take out of the spy pen? I've watched Veronica Mars repeatedly and I don't believe we ever get an answer. The people need to know."

HZ: I assumed it was a note that confirmed that he and Lilly were involved, and thus would have cast suspicion on him as her murderer. But that feels like a boring suggestion now that you've set it up. 

JOY: Well, a note that indicates they're involved definitely seems like the vibe, but I think maybe even further - at this point, whenever she got this note, it was probably around the time that she was becoming less interested in Weevil. Or maybe pushing Weevil away. So it might have been more frantic in nature, or more like, "Are you seeing somebody else? If you are I'll kill them," or, you know, it could have been a little more aggressive.

HZ: Also, remember that episode where he's in class reciting what appears to be an original poem but is song lyrics?

JOY: You think he just puts them Social D lyrics in that spot then? 

HZ: Or some O-Town. 

DUANA TAHA: But I love the idea of of something that could implicate him in the disappearance, whether it was vaguely threatening or just otherwise implicating him. But the lyrics of ‘Liquid Dreams’ I assume would fall under that under that umbrella. 

HZ: It is a crime. 

DUANA TAHA: But yeah, I guess, regardless, Weevil has more to lose. It doesn't seem like theirs would be a relationship that would be heavily text- and word-based. 

HZ: I have a question. Why would Lilly bother with a spy pen to pass notes to her lovers, but just keep a load of dick pics loose in the air vent?

JOY: Because she loves the drama. The drama of a spy pen, the drama of loose dick pics. I mean, it all adds up to a good time, I think. 

DUANA TAHA: Yeah. If it was too easy, then how would she fill her time? She'd have to pick up yet another lover to fill in those extra hours. 

JOY: Do we all have to keep saying "lovers" just because she did? 

HZ: "Lovahs." Lovahs is what she says. And I think she's doing it to wind you up, Jenny. That's a gift from beyond the grave. 

JOY: Nice. Thanks, Lilly. 

HZ: But also, we find out quite early that Lilly and Weevil were involved. Therefore, I forget that a lot of the characters do not know this, either for a long time or ever. Like, Logan knows, and Felix knows, but Veronica doesn't really get it confirmed for a really long time. And maybe they're the only ones who know?

DUANA TAHA: I don't know. If you go too far down the number of things Lilly was keeping from Veronica, then the best friendship situation starts to get a little worrisome. I should probably end that thought, but that's where we are. 

HZ: I do feel like they, in a couple of years, wouldn't really be best friends anymore. Like when Lilly goes to college. 

DUANA TAHA: Oh, absolutely. And sort of would flee to their separate corners that got more and more different. 

HZ: I sense a sad friend break-up in their future. Which is why Veronica murdered her. The greatest twist! 

HZ: Victor wants to point out the inconsistency of Veronica understanding Weevil's uncle speaking Spanish in Episode 5, when they go to the car yard that he works out to find out where Troy's dad's car is, and she understands when Weevil's talking to him in Spanish. And then Veronica doesn't understand the Spanish-speaking dognapper minions in Episode 19. She'd forgotten Spanish in that period?

JOY: The only thing I could really get to with this is maybe because there were so many men all speaking Spanish at the same time. 

DUANA TAHA: And very indignantly. 

JOY: Very indignantly. And they're also doing a lot of like rodeo pantomime; that's very confusing. So maybe all of that added up to making it very difficult for Veronica to parse what everybody was saying. 

HZ: I think that's fair. I think if you learned the language in class, then you're still not necessarily fluent at it to understand it in angry situations rather than single-person-talking-quite-slowly situations. 

DUANA TAHA: Right. The closer it sounds to the recorded voice on the tape, the more likely you're going to be able to pick out enough to understand via context. 

HZ: I was quite impressed that she managed to understand enough of what they were talking about, which is a sexy silhouette of a girl on mudflaps, in the dognapper scene. I just thought that was a decent level of Spanish comprehension to understand that much. Or mime comprehension. 

JOY: Yeah, I feel like it was really about the - I'm doing something with my hands right now. 

HZ:  It looks like you're miming either enormous breasts, or kind of a high Santa stomach. 

JOY: Take your pick. I feel like that's what it looked like in the show, too. 

DUANA TAHA: Also clever of them, I guess, to try to express it to her via easily identifiable mudflaps that you can see without having to go anywhere, break into anything, you know? 

JOY: Yeah. It's truly a miracle that those are the first, that's the first set of those mudflaps she bumps into, after having this conversation with them.

HZ: Extremely convenient. 

JOY: Very popular. 

HZ: Crystal wants to know whether our opinions about the show have changed as we've done a deeper dive into Season 1. "Do you expect analysis of subsequent seasons will shift your opinions about the show as a whole?" Good question. Duana, how do you feel about it? As we've been analyzing it in your ears, have we ruined it for you? 

DUANA TAHA: No, it is one of those shows that I never get tired of watching, even as I discover some of the things that you illuminated that in retrospect are really not ideal. 

HZ: It was funny to me how watching it before, just the only things that stuck were kind of the long arcs and the emotional relationships between like Veronica and Keith, and Wallace and stuff. None of the mysteries of the week stuck. And I also didn't really notice some of the things where you're like "hmm" now that I'm watching it multiple times and taking copious notes on it for a podcast. 

JOY: I didn't watch it until right before we started making this podcast. I watched the whole series. 

HZ: Not even suspecting what was about to crash into your life?

JOY: Having no idea what kind of havoc was about to be brought down upon me, Helen. I feel like I'm still developing my initial feelings about the show, you know? I definitely watched it so fast and so furiously that I don't think I really took in like a ton of the questionable things, or the stuff doesn't hold up as much, and more was just like, "Woo, wild ride, every boy is in love with Veronica." And the tiny jackets and argyle, of course, like those things really stuck, and this subsequent nearly immediate rewatch is definitely illuminating for me. 

HZ: I do think that it's made me dislike certain things about this season more, because in my memory this season was pretty impeccable, and obviously now I've made many hours of podcasts suggesting that it isn't. But I do wonder whether approaching it like I would have critiqued a book when I was studying English will make me enjoy some of the weaker spots more, because I don't remember loving Season 3 when I was just watching it for fun, but maybe I will like it more this time.

JOY: That's interesting, yeah. 

DUANA TAHA: I definitely think it's one of the shows that doesn't benefit from binge watching. The suspense of, "What are we going to find out?" back when it was airing week-to-week definitely was working, I think, in its favour. And, because I agree with you, I think the conventional wisdom is always that Season 1 is pretty seamlessly plotted and paced and, yeah, looking back, you kind of go, "Well, was it?" I do think it's addictive for sure, but maybe that we forget the the sins that are committed in service of getting us to the end of the plot of the week, the mystery of the week, are a little bit lost in your memory. Or Weevil's eyes. 

JOY: Yes. Also every episode is so dense, like so densely packed with things happening that having a week to digest all of that would probably be very beneficial before starting a new episode. It's always just like eight thousand things are happening. 

HZ: And they're all so stressful. 

JOY: Yeah. 

DUANA TAHA: I also think, at the risk of being inside baseball-y, that it's just amazing to look back now at the demands of a 22-episode season. 

JOY: Woof. 

HZ: Yep. And Kristen Bell's in nearly every scene. 

DUANA TAHA: Every scene. 

HZ: And so many nights shoots as well. 

DUANA TAHA: To have to have everything that she's doing in every episode keep up that pace and danger and drama, when the Lilly Kane mystery and the mystery of the party and her rape...

HZ: And finding her mum. 

DUANA TAHA: ...and finding her mum are really the substance of those episodes alone, really could be contained in, dare I say, 10, 12 maybe? That there are a lot of, there's a lot of extraneousness that comes with what was a full season order circa 2003-4. 

HZ: “Let's put the murder to the side for a little bit because there's a dog lost.” 

JOY: “But then also there's a goat that's been stolen. But then also where did the parrot go?” 

HZ: “Now back to the serious crimes.” I seem to remember reading interviews that suggested they had to adjust that a bit in season 2 so that she wasn't working all the time. 

DUANA TAHA: Yeah, I remember that being the case, that there were plotlines that were maybe less well received because they were conceived of maybe after the fact, I assume. Maybe after contract negotiations to make sure that she wasn't on a 22-hour-a-day kind of gig. 

HZ: So I first watched this, like, 2008, 2009, when Lo, who provides our legal knowledge, lent me the DVD box set. And then I watched it in 2018 when I was in hospital for three weeks, and I didn't really have internet, but what I did have was the first three seasons of Veronica Mars on my computer. My husband would come by and visit every evening, we'd watch two episodes of Veronica Mars. So at the time it was just escapist, which is weird because it's really not an escapist show in the main. 

JOY: Why can't I escape to a reality where rape is almost present in every single day of life? 

HZ: A lot of brutal violence. 

JOY: Yeah. 

DUANA TAHA: Absolutely no indication that anything's going to be OK at all. That'll send you right off to sleep. 

HZ: But you, having written on Degrassi, a show set in high school and presumably employing a lot of teens or adults who look a bit like teens -

DUANA TAHA: Yes. 

JOY: Yeah, explain teens to us. 

HZ: Yeah, what are teens? 

JOY: What are they all about? 

DUANA TAHA: Oh, well, teens in the context of television are absolutely atrocious, because if they're young enough to actually be authentic about what you're trying to portray, they're too embarrassed to actually do it. There's nothing like, you know, a scene with a 16-year-old having a first kiss, who who is anxious because the the actor in question has not had the first kiss.

HZ: That's pretty grim, I think. You hear about this with a lot of actors, that their first kiss was on set. It seems a bit unfair. 

DUANA TAHA: Yeah, and they never want to say so, and there's a whole bunch of adults looking at them like, "Come on, get it right." 

HZ: “Our jobs depend on you, child.” 

DUANA TAHA: I do think it's always better if it's a show where there are many, many young people so that the pressure isn't just on one of them. But yeah, the alternative is short or otherwise young-looking 24-year-olds playing 15, and suspension of disbelief. 

HZ: How do you tackle this: where you are older than the characters you're portraying, therefore you have different references to them that they probably wouldn't know about or use, like cultural references; but then if you did try and speak like a current teen, it would just be extremely hard cringe time?

DUANA TAHA: Yeah, there's definitely a lot of anxious googling to see if you can find an authentic place for "What are the kids saying?" without making your internet search history look too bad. But yeah, it involves definitely watching those actors while they're reading it, to go, if they wince or otherwise smirk, you're like, "We'll just take this, take it to pink pages, take it to blue, see if we can young this up a bit."

JOY: Do you ever have, or does anyone ever have like a teen consultant? 

HZ: Skins had a lot of teen writers. 

JOY: Oh yeah. 

HZ: Or at least the British version did, I don't know about the American one. 

DUANA TAHA: Definitely on Degrassi, part of the read-through process was actors giving feedback on things that felt authentic or not, or, "At my school this happened" and a bunch of writers furiously are writing and revising as they speak. 

JOY: Oh, yeah. Do a lot of teens on Degrassi reference Brigadoon?

DUANA TAHA: There's only so much suspension of disbelief, and, you know, the fact that all these things happen at a school in Canada, of all places is is about as far as you can push the limits. Brigadoon would have been a bridge too far. 

JOY: Oh my god - was Drake on Degrassi when you were working on it? 

DUANA TAHA: Sure was. 

JOY: I'm so sorry. Everything just came crashing together in my mind at once. 

DUANA TAHA: Not only was he there, but I will tell you this, because it's both delightful and embarrassing: on some level, I think that he and I share a songwriting credit. 

JOY: Explain yourself immediately. 

HZ: She wrote ‘Hotline Bling’. 

DUANA TAHA: No, there was a truly terrible situation that I still feel guilty about to this day, wherein the Jimmy character was going to rap on a song for his girlfriend. 

CLIP: Drake rapping in Degrassi season 7 episode 4:

"Tell me anything but the truth, 'cos I don't really know if I can take it now. Tell me anything but the truth, can't figure out how I'm supposed to make it now. Tell me lies, lies, lies..."

DUANA TAHA: And Aubrey, as he was then known, was like, "Guys, this is my thing, I don't really want to do this as Jimmy because I want to make a career out of this." And of course, everybody said, "You're in a warehouse in north Toronto, like, take it easy there." I don't think there was a huge amount of belief that that would happen. Long story short, we had to have some placeholder lyrics in the script, understanding that they would not be anywhere close to what the final product would be, and he very kindly incorporated them into what he wound up doing off the cuff on the set on the day with absolutely no rehearsal, which if you look on YouTube, is pretty spectacular and thematic, not just for the character, but for the time in the season. So Aubrey Drake Graham is fairly legit. 

HZ: Helen in Sweden has pointed out that the sanitary product vending machine in the toilet office has no product information or prices. Maybe they're free? Maybe it's just not kept up, so there's nothing in it. 

JOY: I think it's not kept up. I think that's the drop box for if you're hiring Veronica for something, you have to slip a wad of cash into the out-of-order sanitary products vending machine. 

DUANA TAHA: I'm not sure how many I ever encountered in schools that were operational. Most of them seemed like they were derelict and leftover from an earlier time. 

HZ: Yeah. I think ours were probably vandalized. I saw one in a hotel I was in in Saint Louis a few weeks ago, which not only had sanitary products, but also condoms and then also novelties. So in order to find out what novelties were, we bought one, and it turned out to be a condom with Bin Laden on it. 

JOY: Horrifying. 

HZ: Not a prophylactically-effective condom, it was really just for show. 

DUANA TAHA: Purely a comedic prophylactic. 

JOY: It seems like the kind of thing you shouldn't make a joke version of. 

HZ: I agree. 

JOY: It's interesting because the only vending machines in bathrooms that I've encountered that had like a novelty aspect were in the UK in music clubs, where I have purchased a surprising little miniature book that is just like slightly larger than a quarter, that was kind of like a sex flipbook. I don't know why that market exists. 

HZ: We like to get off like the Victorians used to get off. 

JOY: Also, just the idea that you need amusement in between, you know, the sink and the door. 

HZ: Yeah. Well, you know how a lot of people find humour attractive - maybe you can buy it. 

DUANA TAHA: True. 

HZ: To impress your lovahs. 

HZ: In episode 21, we open with this scene of Cuba, allegedly, and then Duncan reading the newspaper, and some listeners have been doing some great detective work about this. Bree on Twitter said that the place playing Cuba in the opening scene is El Prado, the main walkway in Balboa Park in San Diego. On the left, Casa del Balboa. Straight ahead, the California Tower at the Museum of Man. What's in the Museum of Man? 

JOY: Like, men? 

HZ: Do they mean man as in people, or man in specifically men?

DUANA TAHA: Which maybe makes for a very specific museum. 

JOY: I want you to know that I just zipped over to the San Diego Museum of Man website, and the first exhibit that popped up is called ‘See Cannibals: Myth and Reality’. So cannibalism feels, you know, genderless to me, I guess, is what I'm saying. So I think people, not just men. 

DUANA TAHA: In which case, maybe they're gonna rebrand that museum title someday. 

JOY: Wouldn't that be nice? 

HZ: And then Duncan is reading a paper, which, according to Ashra, who is from Vancouver, is Canada's own Globe and Mail. 

DUANA TAHA: It is a very exciting moment in every rewatch of this episode, because it's very exciting to go, "Look at us, we do exist."

HZ: She thought maybe it's some insight into where the Cuba scene was shot, but, as we know, it's in San Diego, which is some distance from Canada. So then Carl says, "My theory, as a Canadian and a former Globe and Mail feature editor, is that Canada didn't participate in the Cuban embargo, so the show probably figured that would be a foreign paper Duncan could get in Havana."

JOY:  Wow, Carl!

HZ: Great detective work from all of these people. Very proud of you. 

DUANA TAHA: Definitely. Cuba was a vacation destination that was very common in long Canadian winters, and it took a long time before we as Canadians understood why it was that everybody was from Britain or Hungary or anywhere else, but you never met anybody from the US, so I can see that being the case. 

HZ: Well, I was curious as to how Duncan got in. 

DUANA TAHA: Maybe he has a fake Canadian passport along with -

HZ: Oh, he did buy a fake -

JOY: Right, he bought an Argentinian passport from eBay. 

HZ: And then the same episode, Kevin Seamus was wondering about the building where Logan takes Veronica for some smooching, and then she leaves because it turns out to be rigged up with cameras. And he says, "If that building is the pool house, what's the building Logan has in the poker game? I don't doubt the Echollses having two standing bungalows on their property, but it did make me wonder."

JOY: I was thinking about this, too. They definitely seem to be very different buildings. 

HZ: They really did. A lot more windows. It was bigger. Didn't seem to have hidden cameras in it. 

JOY: No face curtains. 

HZ: And I would assume as well, because some people are like, "Is that Logan's room?" I think you see Logan's room in that episode where it's his mum's funeral. But also, why would Logan have curtains with his parents' faces on in his own bedroom? 

JOY: Terrifying. 

HZ: Or in his sex hut - though, to be fair, I know teenage boys can sex it through most things. But still. 

DUANA TAHA: It's a very specific kink, if that was what he was into. I've never had a pool, so I'm a little bit flying blind, but I assume a poolhouse is meant to be to change and and refresh and so forth, post-swim. 

HZ: I've stayed in a friend's poolhouse in LA, and there was an office in it, a bed, a full shower room, a drumkit. So I think a lot of people have them as guesthouses. 

DUANA TAHA: I was going to ask what distinguishes a poolhouse from a guest house? 

HZ: The proximity of a pool? 

DUANA TAHA: So do we think the Echolls mansion could be the kind of place that would have both a poolhouse and a guesthouse? 

HZ: Yeah. 

JOY: Yeah. 

HZ: I wonder whether one of them as well was built to be servants' quarters or something, and then it just gets taken over by more Echolls shit. 

DUANA TAHA: Right. 

HZ: In that same episode, Lawsie wonders, "When Logan reminded Veronica about the air vent hiding place, why didn't Veronica go straight to Lilly's?" I guess because the Kanes don't like her?

JOY: She's sort of persona non grata, right? 

HZ: Duncan has just made it very clear how not on board with Veronica he is, because he left Logan's party. 

JOY: And then attacked that defenceless car. 

HZ: So how would she get in? Even though she does know probably all of the entrances to every building in Neptune. What about if she stashed herself in a plant pot and got Wallace to deliver it? 

JOY: That is a great idea. It's worked once before, on a smaller scale. Keith could show up in a little cap and coveralls and be like, "Gotta check your pipes."

HZ: I do love a Mars in costume. 

JOY: And just have her in a huge tool box. 

HZ: She could just go disguised as a window cleaner because their glass house must need a lot of maintenance. 

JOY: Yeah, and they have no facial recognition for anyone who works for them. 

HZ: No, exactly: servants are invisible, they're just lumps. 

DUANA TAHA: It does seem like a real error in preparation on Veronica's part not to have some sort of outfit available for that kind of occasion. She has something for every permutation of disguise. 

JOY: She's got catering wear. She's got gamer girl anime outfits. She's got a wedding planning binder that's very thick. 

HZ: Oh yeah. She's got the pink outfit just to dupe men with. 

JOY: Sure. Sure. 

HZ: Also, she doesn't know that she's looking for anything in the vent until the next episode when Logan tells her that he's written this exonerating letter. So at the end of episode 21, she isn't in search of something. 

JOY: Right. 

HZ: In episode 14, where you've got this horrible plot where Veronica is trying to defend Mr. Rooks against this accusation that he's been having an affair with a student... 

JOY: I thought we agreed we would never talk about this episode again, Helen. 

HZ: ...at the end, the critical clue is just found by Veronica going to the phone book and being like, "Susan Knight? Oh, there's only like one Knight in the phone book," or whatever, and going to a house where she still lives, even though she says she's estranged from her parents. So to me, that felt like a real writing shortcut, just to be like, "Fixed it with the phone book." 

DUANA TAHA: There's also the fact that, subsequent viewings of this, young people will not know what a phone book is, or why it would just be out there in the middle of the world. 

HZ: Right, why you wouldn't just DM Susan on Instagram.

DUANA TAHA: Right, or, yeah, or otherwise, this is one of the problems about Neptune, that if we sort of assume that not only is it relatively small, but all these people have known each other for a long time, so you'd think that at some point Veronica would have dropped Susan Knight home from a 10-year-old's birthday party or something. 

JOY: Yeah, right. 

HZ: Also, she's asked Wallace for enough favours. I'm sure if she could have got the address just from Susan's file. 

JOY: Also true. 

DUANA TAHA: Wait, so why did they do that then? I'm just thinking now, what was the point of an extraneous phone book scene? 

HZ: It would have raised fewer questions me if she'd just turned up at Susan's house and we hadn't known how she came to be there, but then I suppose it wasn't in the top five objectionable things about that episode. I also felt like the plot in Episode 3, where she's trying to find Justin's missing parent, John Smith, by sending out all these letters to John Smith listed in the phone book and waiting for one to come back, that seemed like a very messy plot to me as well for trying to find this guy. 

DUANA TAHA: Yeah, I do remember reading once Rob Thomas saying if they were authentic about everything that Veronica could do just by sitting at her computer, that the whole show would be sitting at her computer. 

HZ: That's true. And and also, Justin's parent, they transitioned like ten years before, but they're still listed in the phone book under their dead name?

JOY: That seems very weird, but I wonder if things were difficult enough, and still so analogue, that maybe she was listed under her dead name and also her current name? You know, as like two...

DUANA TAHA: Totally separate entities. 

JOY: Exactly, yeah. 

HZ: I suppose, yeah. 

HZ: This is a complicated sort of question from Amanda, who says, "The mystery is why I, and many, many others obviously, like Logan so much. I consider myself an evolved modern woman who would be appalled if my partner went around punching people in my defence or being overly protective. But why does my brain think it's romantic when Logan does it? And is also able to forgive and forget actual bad stuff he's done, like the bum fights? Is it the character balance opposite Veronica, or the inherent charm of how Jason Dohring plays Logan, or ingrained misogynistic societal norms? Who knows?" 

JOY: Probably a little from column A, little from column B, little from column C. And we love a problematic fave, don't we?

HZ: I suppose you don't have to commit to a problematic fave. It's something that burns hot and fast, and then out. 

DUANA TAHA: Yeah. True. And I think too when we meet Logan and he's so heinous and so over the top, there is no indication that he's going to be able to bend at all, so the fact that he changes must be because of his growing heart and his growing love. So it endears us to him, and helps us conveniently forget the many, many unsavoury parts of him. 

HZ: I think also something that comes up quite a lot is that anger is hot and passionate in men, but really that's just covering up the fact that they're not necessarily encouraged, especially not around the time the series was made, to express their emotions in a healthy way, or in a compassionate way. 

DUANA TAHA: Yeah, I heard recently what is probably a cliche, that where there's anger, there's always fear. And if you look at Logan, you can see that pretty obviously that he's pretty scared, which brings out everybody's protective instincts, but yeah, not allowed to show it. So anger shows up. But you see how well he responds when he's shown the least bit of affection, I think. And it makes you want to give him that much more. 

JOY: I also think there's something to what it does for us, as people, to watch someone in a story grow and change, and maybe angle themselves towards redemption, because it probably, I'm guessing, maybe gives us a feeling that that's something attainable? For us as individuals, and/or, depending on like what your life is like, maybe it gives you hope for somebody else. I don't know. I could see that sort of like transferring very easily onto this kind of situation. 

HZ: At what point of the season as well do you think people start feeling hot for Logan? Because, do you think they do that before Episode 6, when you see him being subject to violence by his father? But before that, he's like bum fights, dating Paris Hilton, just really classist and racist and disgusting. So do you think it's when this element of vulnerability comes in because you realise he's in this awful home situation that people can start feeling hot for Logan? 

DUANA TAHA: I think getting a window into his domestic situation is maybe a seed, or like the door cracking open, but I think that makes it possible for people to really get on board at the point where I think it really starts to take off, which is when they kiss, and Jonathan Taylor Thomas is like, "Ow, my face." I feel like he doesn't really start to seem like a likable, viable option that we're interested in, until, or maybe when Veronica starts investigating the death of his mom, like maybe that is the vulnerability that really opens him up to us. Maybe I'm a pushover, but, obviously, the kiss is the moment of full launch. But we were so primed for it. I think, I remember the flashbacks in the dancing and nude swimming episode, when Lilly and Veronica and Duncan go to not the prom. 

JOY: I think it's just homecoming?

HZ: Just limo party.

DUANA TAHA: A limo party. 

JOY: Weird formal homecoming. 

DUANA TAHA: Yeah. That's the first time we see him being a human and interested in, you know, able to spend time with all those guys in a way that is not being an absolute dick. And I think those seeds start early, and I can't remember if right around then we also see him sort of thinking about the memorial and so forth. 

HZ: Yeah, that's the same episode. 

JOY: Yeah. Those flashbacks are essentially the material that he cuts from. 

HZ: Episode 4. So, yeah, it does start happening early, the Logan redemption arc.

DUANA TAHA: I think they really plant the seeds of, "Love him, he was he was nice once, you can turn him back into" - there's Beauty and the Beast vibes I guess. 

HZ: Jenny, you have made your Weevil affiliations very clear. You're gay for Weevil, somewhat gay for Leo. 

JOY: Very gay for Leo. 

HZ: I never really heard you being gay for Logan. 

JOY: I like Logan a lot. I think he's very charming and charismatic, and I definitely like Logan and Veronica together, there's like just boundless chemistry. He's just not... Of all the men I'll never sleep with, he's definitely, you know, down the ladder a bit. He's just not my type. 

DUANA TAHA: I will confess that I feel a real kinship in this room, because Deputy Leo and Weevil often are duking it out in my in my private dreams. 

JOY: “I'm afraid you're gonna have to come down to the station, Weevil.” And then Weevil says something snarky back to him. 

HZ: "Oh no, don't cuff me, please."

DUANA TAHA: Imagine those two are accidentally locked in a cell together. 

JOY: Oops. 

DUANA TAHA: Come on. 

JOY: Yeah!

HZ: She has. 

DUANA TAHA: I also never thought that I would have affection for somebody who had no ability to articulate any vowels or consonants until Deputy Leo. But love works in mysterious ways. 

HZ: It is amazing what he manages to do with just a kind of sleepy creak, isn't it? Just a "Mrrrrrrr." 

JOY: Is he eating a sandwich, right now? It's just he has some food in his cheeks? 

HZ: I think maybe he's just had a dental anaesthetic and it hasn't worn off yet. 

DUANA TAHA: It's true. We should be maybe sensitive to perhaps like a permanent TMJ situation. I don't know. But he he does a lot with what he has, I think. 

HZ: I have a question. Leo, the character, is also established as Leo, the Astrological Sign, which places his birthday late July, August? 

DUANA TAHA: Yeah. 

JOY: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

HZ: Veronica's birthday is established to be, I think, around July - definitely a summer birthday. 

JOY: It's just - that's just incorrect. 

HZ: Leo says he's 29 months older than her, but her birthday is not canonically at the beginning of the year, it's in the middle of the year.

JOY: But she is so obviously a Capricorn. She's like the Capricorniest Capricorn of all time, which would put her exactly in a 29-month age gap with Leo. These are just facts, Helen. 

HZ: So are you saying Rob Thomas got Veronica's star sign wrong, and that's the problem?

JOY: I'm saying that whenever they retconned that Veronica's birthday is in the summer, like down the line, that was a mistake. That was a terrible error. 

DUANA TAHA: I have perhaps a contrary opinion. As a Leo, born in August, we really only know about ourselves. That's kind of a known trait. But is Leo the kind of person who would put on being a Leo because it just goes that nicely with his name? 

HZ: Oh, so he's doing a joke, but actually he's like a Pisces or something?

DUANA TAHA: I wonder, you know. And also because somebody who's Leo may also be covering up that they are Leonard or Leonardo. Lionel, maybe? And I feel like saying, "I'm a Le, and also a Leo" stops people from asking questions. 

HZ: So you think he's just doing a joke about his star sign also being his name? 

DUANA TAHA: It could be. Also as we've been talking, I googled, according to a Veronica Mars wiki, apparently her birthday is August 22nd, which, if I understand -

JOY: Oh, that's the first day of Virgo, isn't it? 

DUANA TAHA: This is the thing, there's a bit of a cusp happening. 

JOY: OK. I could see her maybe being a Virgo, with maybe strong Capricorn placements up at the top of her chart. I would accept that. She doesn't make sense as a Leo to me. 

DUANA TAHA: I agree with you, although she is as confident in her own abilities to a fault, as a Leo is. 

JOY: Sure, but she's more mission-oriented, and more like, "Nothing will stop me from completing the task." You know what I mean? She's more -

DUANA TAHA: Driven? 

JOY: Yeah. And in an earthy way, not in a fiery Leo way, you know? 

DUANA TAHA: Right. There's also that real rigid black-and-white thinking, I guess, that can be attributed to Virgos. I do think there is maybe an academic paper to be written about elements that prove that Veronica could be a Leo or not. 

JOY: Sure, sure. 

HZ: You could do that paper, Jenny. 

JOY: I would like to verbally and directly address Natalie in Seattle and the other eight thousand people who let us know that Perdy and Pongo did not have a litter of 101 puppies. 

HZ: OK. That's a relief, to me. 

JOY: Phew, Perdy is in much better shape than we initially thought. 

HZ: Still, though, she had litter of, what, like -

JOY: 14 or 15? There seems to be disagreement. 

HZ: That's still a lot of puppies. It's getting up towards the record-breaking number of puppies in one litter. People have mentioned that it was Cruella De Vil who had amalgamated 101 dalmatian puppies. 

JOY: Natalie also asks what feels to me like a very important question for our listeners. "What does Helen Zaltzman look like? I've never seen a picture" - what, do you have Google? - "but when I try to picture a personage that is as physically impressive as her voice, the only human that comes to mind is Idris Elba. Helen, are you Idris Elba?"

HZ: Oh, sure. 

JOY: Helen, please respond to that and then Duana and I are going to describe you so that everyone can know what you're all about. 

HZ: As a tall, very handsome black man. 

JOY: That's right. 

HZ: Well, Idris Elba and I, I don't believe have ever been seen in the same room. 

JOY: Interesting. 

HZ: Make of that what you will. 

DUANA TAHA: The plot thickens. 

HZ: Or does it? 

JOY: Listeners, I'm in a room with Helen right now. Have you ever seen a great tower of flame, with a commanding voice? An English accent? Spectacles? An impressive resume? 

HZ: Wellll... 

JOY: Yes. The ability to play the glockenspiel. 

DUANA TAHA: Oh, I did not know that. 

HZ: Not well. 

DUANA TAHA: Good descriptor. 

JOY: And the euphonium? Baritone horn?

HZ: Only when I was like 14. It was a brief period of my life. 

JOY: You were a shorter tower of flame at a time. 

HZ: It's very bad to play a metal instrument when you’re made of flame. It just gets very hot. 

JOY: Heats up, and then maybe there's some melting. 

HZ: Yeah, yeah. 

JOY: Anyway, that's as much as you need to know, listeners, about Helen. 

HZ: But it's a lovely compliment, Natalie, that I'm sure would have dissipated if you had just hit up Google Images. 

DUANA TAHA: I would only also add that I think probably you and Idris have similarly impeccable posture. 

HZ: Really? 

JOY: Really? 

HZ: We have good posture, do we? Well, that's nice for someone who generally works sitting in bed, hunched over a laptop. 

DUANA TAHA: You would never know. And I say that as somebody who slouches professionally. 

JOY: Yeah, you sound very upright in all of your work, Helen. 

HZ: Is that because of the accent thing again, working its wiles? 

JOY: Probably. That's probably playing a part. 

HZ: Well, I'm sure there's still a lot of loose ends from Season 1 that we have not managed to tie up, and mysteries that we've not managed to solve. But such is life, it's not all neatly solved. But I will say that is Season 1 of Veronica Mars investigated. 

JOY: Cases closed. 

HZ: That was Veronica Mars Investigations Investigations season 1. 

JOY: Watch Season 2 Episode 1 and join us in a month to investigate it. 

HZ: Find the show on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook  at @VMIpod for some excellent social media fun times. 

JOY: The website, where the show lives and you can come visit anytime, is VMIpod.com. 

DUANA TAHA: I'm Duana Taha. You can find me on Twitter at @duanaelise, or on the podcast Show Your Work, available where you find fine podcasts. 

JOY: I'm Jenny Owen Youngs, and you can hear more of my speaking voice on my other podcast Buffering the Vampire Slayer. You can also alternatively hear my singing voice by going to jennyowenyoungs.com and checking out all of the hot hot jams I have accumulated over the years. 

HZ: Strongly recommend. I'm Helen Zaltzman, and in the time before there is more VMI, why don't you listen to my other podcasts - Answer Me This, at answermethispodcast.com, and the Allusionist, at theallusionist.org - for factual entertainment. 

JOY: This episode was edited and mixed by America's borrowed sweetheart Helen Zaltzman. 

HZ: The music is by Martin Austwick and Jenny Owen Youngs. 

JOY: How dare you. The sheriff of this town is Hrishikesh Hirway. 

HZ: The show is distributed by PRX. 

JOY: Until next time: who's your daddy? 

HZ: Who's your daddy? 

DUANA TAHA: Who's your daddy? 

JOY: If we keep asking the question, we'll never have to answer it.